00:00:04: Couldn't help but wonder

00:00:06: if

00:00:06: taxes are truly unavoidable.

00:00:09: Why do they always feel like a bad date?

00:00:11: We never agreed to.

00:00:13: Welcome to tax and the city.

00:00:15: I'm Julia Tadje from taxome your personal tax boutique in Zurich.

00:00:20: Here we talk taxes simply and honestly Sometimes just you and me sometimes with guests Always rooted in real life And Just Like That Something mandatory Becomes A Little More Delightful.

00:00:39: I couldn't help but wonder, when did passports become part of a life strategy?

00:00:44: There was a time where you were simply born somewhere and that's what happened.

00:00:47: Your passport wasn't something you optimised it was just background.

00:00:51: But lately i'm seeing something different.

00:00:54: People are thinking about mobility in the way they think about investments Optionality Flexibility Security And of course, whether anyone plans for it or not.

00:01:05: when you move across borders your financial and tax life tends to follow quietly behind.

00:01:11: Which is why I find today's guests so fascinating because When i first heard what she does... ...I thought this was an actual profession.

00:01:18: Hi Liana Weckerly!

00:01:21: She works at Henlein Partners Switzerland part of a global firm with over seventy offices advising families on residence in citizenship planning.

00:01:30: that actually is the scene.

00:01:32: So in other words, she helps people redesign where they belong.

00:01:36: Liana I'm really excited to have you here!

00:01:38: Hello!

00:01:38: You let pleasure be a guest as your podcast?

00:01:43: You're quite the famous person...

00:01:46: Not famous yet but yeah.

00:01:47: so how does someone end up advising ultra-high net worth individuals families on second residences and citizenships?

00:01:57: this is not exactly something uh you mentioned at a career fair or Yeah, I'm so

00:02:04: glad they actually asked me that question because i don't remember anyone ever asked but we talk with my colleagues and often we talked about this topic.

00:02:17: Because there isn't a degree at university in which you can go to study.

00:02:20: no suddenly join investment migration companies start working I tell you, we all came from different kinds of backgrounds which creates this amazing space to be around amazing people colleagues and everyone is enriching the life of others through his own personal experience.

00:02:41: Which is something that i really love.

00:02:43: So your coming form very different background like Henley?

00:02:47: I'm a teacher of English and French, so one is in theology.

00:02:52: And the second one was international relations and politics.

00:02:57: So this is perfect combination for something that i am doing.

00:03:02: when you look at my life choices and experiences to help my clients who are high net worth individuals, very often they're successful and energetic business owners.

00:03:24: So I helped them build their own portfolio right now at the moment so that it can be more mobile head against geopolitical problems, experiencing now.

00:03:37: And I find myself in a good position to do so because I went through each step myself.

00:03:42: maybe i should mention how historically this trend appeared and then the... How we came to.

00:03:48: why is it even an issue?

00:03:50: Like everyone has their citizenship or let's say exactly as far as I know Maybe there are people without any citizenship.

00:03:58: You know, historically we had clients from emerging countries coming to us.

00:04:02: I started work for Henly twelve years ago and what i noticed first hand?

00:04:06: majority of my clients were from countries like Russia China Bangladesh Nigeria South Africa Egypt.

00:04:16: So these are countries with emerging economies.

00:04:19: And the trend continued for a few years and normally you can very well understand.

00:04:24: Imagine you are born in one of these countries.

00:04:27: You've built up a successful business, but then maybe you're not so happy with the way politics is going or safety.

00:04:34: There's conflict and there are security concerns And we want to be in position where you want protect your family and acquire passport from another country.

00:04:46: So if something happens that you can move into this country But initially when they would come us it isn't necessary.

00:04:54: They just want to have the possibility do so in case something happens.

00:04:59: That's exactly that was one part of it, The second part which is as important As the first one Of course global mobility.

00:05:06: If you're coming from an emerging country You cannot travel to Europe is free.

00:05:12: I've had So many conversations starting with Leana please you know, to spend months waiting for a visa.

00:05:23: If I am in business and i need to travel and I need to fly here on the air...I'm not in any position to queue!

00:05:28: I don't want to queue either to the embassy or in the airport.

00:05:32: so this was probably the main thing.

00:05:35: but most of them are quite Caribbean passports.

00:05:37: some went for EU options either whether it's citizens people or residents.

00:05:41: It has helped him quite a lot.

00:05:43: But then what we started?

00:05:45: Then of course Covid happened And suddenly, you're a welfare American.

00:05:51: You have your own private jet... ...you can fly anywhere with enough financial means.

00:05:57: and when COVID happened this is something that no one expected ever!

00:06:01: These people just realized having only one US passport does not help them in any way to leave their country or go somewhere.

00:06:10: So it wasn't about getting access to European countries Washington countries or Canada, Singapore and the likes.

00:06:20: U.S.

00:06:21: also has quite strong passport on its own but this was a total other issue of you know having the means, having a strong passport but not being able to go somewhere.

00:06:31: So COVID was huge motivator for everyone...

00:06:36: ...to realize

00:06:37: that right now it's not just you know.. To be able to get away from travel But to be ABLE TO GO AWAY!

00:06:47: That is key phrase in all of this setting.

00:06:50: And then This how the whole choir has moved emerging countries, to developed countries.

00:06:58: I mean there's no lockdowns any longer?

00:07:00: There is not a lockdown but how do you know that they won't be another lockdown sometime in the future?

00:07:05: if your international business... If you want to be mobile it's not even a question of.

00:07:10: i think this became long time ago, part of your wealth planning.

00:07:14: Imagine you are very well diversified through your investment portfolio.

00:07:20: and why can't she be diversified throughout global mobility?

00:07:23: Through acquiring a couple of patents or maybe residency cards that would cover the whole family in terms of business, mobility safety security.

00:07:36: I think anyone right now is well-read and the industry has developed enough to realize that.

00:07:42: But I also wanted to mention when COVID happened, elections were happening at the same time And you know... You have a certain member of Republican Party not liking Democrats and wealth taxes coming into the conversation.

00:07:57: What this point are thinking?

00:07:58: Do i want stay here if things turn out not the way they like a part of somebody else's game or to have the right to choose for myself and have that freedom.

00:08:12: And naturally, if you have another passport or citizenship it is much easier for me make decision to move when possible to denounce your current citizenship.

00:08:22: but I'm not talking about just

00:08:24: U.S.,

00:08:24: we don't have great numbers denouncing this is true in any other country.

00:08:29: Mobility i am sure still thing for many clients also very important.

00:08:35: a second option, having a backdoor.

00:08:38: Exactly!

00:08:39: Having the opportunity and possibility to go somewhere else?

00:08:44: It's about freedom.

00:08:45: it is not belonging just one state and played by its rules although I have lots of respect for that... it's about your personal freedom.

00:08:54: what I've noticed also in last few years we had lot of conflicts going on And now if before people from coming to South Africans, Africans Russians Ukrainians Belarusian Egypt as I mentioned.

00:09:09: So right now we have Germans and French and Europeans especially in the light of conflict between Russia and Ukraine searching for places that are far away from Europe That has enough clean water And enough resources.

00:09:23: so in case there's like a doomsday scenario They had place to go.

00:09:27: This is another trend We're seeing.

00:09:30: The trend has become global And when we're talking about even Swiss people and Europeans in general, they prefer options that are in America or South-East Asia.

00:09:44: I could give an example of, let's take Mauritius for example.

00:09:47: If you're a Swiss pensioner it doesn't have to be expensive anywhere in residency or investment which requires substantial investment or donation.

00:09:59: There are still options that people want to retire.

00:10:02: For example In the case of Mauritias if you can transfer to yourself two thousand per month You can retire there If your not a pensioneer and younger simply by investing property there, I think it's about three hundred and seventy five thousand.

00:10:17: And you can get the residency card.

00:10:18: so this is something that you combine with holidays if we like to go into these places and uh... You invested in a property.

00:10:25: but what more important?

00:10:27: You have another residency card and you can fly there incase There Is Another Covid or Another Conflict!

00:10:33: This is Something A Lot Of People Understand Now and That'S Why They Come To Us.

00:10:38: Yes.. This Is Talking About Global Trends.

00:10:40: We Will Come To These Trends.

00:10:42: Yes, it's like.

00:10:43: maybe everyone that listens to us is as fascinated.

00:10:46: As I was when i first heard it because honestly It never actually crossed my mind me having two citizenships That allow Me a lot of mobility and safety stability?

00:10:57: I Never thought about it But I totally get why it Is the thing And I Like how you put it that You diversify your investment.

00:11:05: so Why should you not Diversify your resume

00:11:07: mobility and

00:11:09: I think people Definitely need you for that Because I wouldn't know how to acquire another passport somewhere.

00:11:16: It requires a little knowledge of the different regulations and rules, not every country is the same.

00:11:21: i assume.

00:11:22: some for sure require high funds.

00:11:24: others do it differently.

00:11:26: in general if you look into it You are looking at options that start probably full both citizenship and residency that start from if it's for investment, a hundred K. And they can end up with the few million we go up to Austria.

00:11:47: before We were helping lots of clients take by multi-citizenships through investments.

00:11:52: at last year something happened.

00:11:54: European Court Justice ruled out They didn't agree with the whole passport for investment.

00:12:03: So what's happening right now in Europe, there is something in legislation of each country that allows you to grant citizenship for exceptional services or... You have to be exceptional and you'll have to do something exceptional for the country to grant you its citizenship.

00:12:20: So this is something Malta in Austria has, but there's... You have to be exceptional!

00:12:26: Come to me we'll talk and see how exceptional you are.

00:12:29: And then there was a possibility

00:12:31: maybe

00:12:31: to be granted citizenship only In this case But otherwise it's quite hard To get European citizenship right now Unless of course

00:12:41: you live there.

00:12:42: Yeah, then it's different.

00:12:43: But by saying that this you know the value to our clients and what we do is they can actually acquire lots of European residency or investment.

00:12:55: And uh They don't have To physically move there You don't Have to become tax residents?

00:13:01: They Don't have to learn The language and This Is something That is very Attractive to them.

00:13:06: but they don't.

00:13:11: They can either just have a residency card, which helps them to be mobile and they can move to that country in any way.

00:13:18: Let's talk about.

00:13:19: Brexit was just happening recently when it happened.

00:13:22: what happened is the UK citizens couldn't go...they lost their right basically of settlement in EU.

00:13:29: They could not stay there as much as they like.

00:13:32: Which drove another wave of clients towards us who went for EU residences In Portugal, Greece or Italy

00:13:41: where the weather is better than in Europe.

00:13:43: To Switzerland, so they could keep this mobility and go anytime to Europe.

00:13:51: So that's what I wanted.

00:13:54: you asked me about investment In general.

00:13:57: if your thinking of acquiring either a passport or residency card You should think probably using ten-to twenty percent of net worth.

00:14:08: Yes.

00:14:08: To contribute to one of these countries, if we talk about Caribbean passport that would allow you access... That will give you access to the EU and some other countries.

00:14:18: they start around two hundred fifty thousand so your family should have probably three million to be able to participate in this.

00:14:29: When people come to you is there very common misconceptions like misunderstandings?

00:14:36: You come across What they underestimate

00:14:40: of course, but this is our job to explain them.

00:14:44: They cannot know it.

00:14:45: You know you come to us and say we We need the travel document And if I needed very fast.

00:14:50: so what did they expect from us?

00:14:52: If there give them a certain time frame for example They said he can't get like in four months or five months The expected maybe a residency card in such a short timeframe.

00:15:02: But the thing is that we could never guarantee the exact time frames because governmental authorities, because there are certain additional questions that can be asked.

00:15:13: Certain additional documents should be provided and this takes time.

00:15:16: so what I do when a client comes to me you know it's managing the extensions right?

00:15:22: i'm sure we all about

00:15:24: yes

00:15:25: while working with your clients.

00:15:26: So probably one thing is the timeshame And It Can Be Quite Frustrating and others...I think This Is The Main Thing That I Came Across.

00:15:34: Anyway The

00:15:37: time frame is an issue where it comes to taxes as well.

00:15:39: People are like, yeah I now submitted my taxes so when will it be assessed?

00:15:44: And then sometimes we have to say can there anything between two weeks and three years?

00:15:49: let's see.

00:15:50: and that also managing expectations you just put in... It can take time.

00:15:54: this actually I can feel the pain of that, especially being in Switzerland.

00:16:00: You know where you can get your tax bill like for last year or this year?

00:16:04: For next day.

00:16:04: and they keep like there's a time frame over really three years when they can send it to you never know how much at then is going.

00:16:12: It's like having several balls in the air at the same time.

00:16:16: So what i hear from you Is um...it's not a fast thing.

00:16:23: there is coming with a certain investment, but it's absolutely doable and manageable if you do it right.

00:16:29: Exactly well basically how this whole thing came to exist in that we put this way?

00:16:34: There are certain governments and countries like to raise foreign direct investments.

00:16:40: I can give an example of some kids.

00:16:42: they rolled out the program in nineteen eighty four And then our chairman was telling he helped them to structure what happened.

00:16:53: and kids in Naevis made their money from selling sugarcane, what came into the budget.

00:17:00: And at one point they realized that going to run out of it... What are you gonna do if your small Caribbean country faced with a problem where your main product is diminishing?

00:17:12: You don't have anything else!

00:17:15: Your population isn't able to produce enough funds for your budget.

00:17:22: rolling out a program like this to attract entrepreneurs.

00:17:25: Let me get this straight, there's very strict due diligence process for all of these programs.

00:17:31: if you have to prove that your source of funds is clear and then only the country will accept it.

00:17:38: Yes!

00:17:39: A lot of countries are looking into this option.

00:17:42: I mean its really working both ways because what these entrepreneurs can do you know, on one side and the country gets funds needed to actually support their own infrastructure.

00:17:55: To build roads?

00:17:55: To build hospitals?

00:17:57: So money aside for education, for their kids.

00:17:59: it is very important.

00:18:00: now.

00:18:01: I want also mention here that On One Side we help clients apply for those programs but on The Other Side where a government advisory which will help governments develop these programs.

00:18:11: And then most recent ones they would like to mention are Nauru.

00:18:16: I like it a lot, because Navarro is in Pachania.

00:18:19: It's the small island of the coast of Australia.

00:18:22: You

00:18:22: have to go there No, but... I'm sorry for you!

00:18:26: There was only one hotel on the island and yesterday i checked.

00:18:32: two hundred tourists visited per year so far.

00:18:37: But what we're doing will attract more tourists infrastructural investment to the country and a lot more tourists will come because it's beautiful island with like white sand surrounded by coral reef palms.

00:18:52: It has around ten thousand

00:18:54: inhabitants only, okay?

00:18:56: Yes but you know... The problem that Nauru is facing because of global warming and this climate change-it's only twenty one thousand square kilometers!

00:19:08: can lose its land to water.

00:19:10: And this is something that should be prevented, so what we did was help them develop a citizenship by investment program and all it's donation-based.

00:19:22: It's called Climate Resilience Programme.

00:19:24: This money will go into the fund which would help tackle these problems of what we do, so this could be good both ways.

00:19:36: So now Ru can finance programmes to actually protect their land like physically

00:19:43: improve infrastructure and fight global warming?

00:19:48: And the first family that actually received Naoru passports was a German family!

00:19:53: Okay yes... The investment is not so high.

00:19:57: it starts from ninety five thousand, no investments are a donation.

00:20:01: So this is something.

00:20:03: if you're a European, if your French or German and they... If you are thinking to have something else.

00:20:09: I think what's better way To get yourself another passport in case Something happens In your own country?

00:20:15: maybe You won't live somewhere else.

00:20:17: What did Germany of France introduce?

00:20:19: wealth taxes?

00:20:20: For example for citizens Would it be perfect to Have something else?

00:20:23: but then Your money has actually gone into supporting something important Like its.

00:20:28: not just so.

00:20:31: Everywhere you look at it, now you can find lots of good things for each party

00:20:37: involved.

00:20:37: So I'm sure that there are plenty stories and more than a decade.

00:20:43: And people must meet very interesting people!

00:20:46: Tell us two or three stories that stick to your

00:20:49: mind... Let me tell you something.

00:20:51: When I first joined Henley & Partners, actually told about my educational background but was working for a single family office here in Zurich and the children of this person who owned it were interested in multi-citizenship And Henley and Partners just developed their program.

00:21:12: It took almost one year to be in place registering their name and getting ready to start with applications.

00:21:22: And I was on the side of this normal office, finding out about conditions for children... This is how I got hired by an in-partner actually because at one point they were looking for someone who knew about Malpov.

00:21:40: so that's when i ended up in company.

00:21:46: And then what happened is I spent my first four years just helping Maltese ultra high network of individuals to apply for multi-citizenship and as a part of my work, don't get me, Maltes due diligence checks were the strictest that ever came across in this industry.

00:22:06: You had to basically prove how did you earn your money starting from the first dollar to whatever you have right now and everything needed to be supported by documents, transactions.

00:22:22: Tax declaration is a very good document I must say because it shows everything.

00:22:28: A part of all this was to sit down with them and write a letter of explanation explaining it.

00:22:36: I've studied here, started this company... As you would go through their history It just made me realise at one point because there are so many interesting stories.

00:22:47: Most were first-generation wealth creators which is the most interesting to talk about from each view And these are the ones that faced risk overcame them.

00:22:58: And it was an amazing part of my work because I learned so many ways on what can you do, but most did have to overcome risks at one point.

00:23:10: The fact that they came and were applying for this is also a part of the story which didn't go into that letter But really played out so important for these people later in their lives from these clients thanking me for doing it at that time.

00:23:31: And a couple of stories I can tell you... Okay, without giving any news!

00:23:37: I will start with one because this kind relates to Switzerland and could be something our listeners could identify themselves with.

00:23:50: from an emerging country and they came to Switzerland, the whole family moved to Switzerland with their children.

00:23:56: They moved by setting up a company.

00:23:58: then the company hired the main applicant as the director which was quite easy together.

00:24:05: but you know that when we do this... You get your work permit valid for one year and then it's renewed every

00:24:12: year.

00:24:13: Exactly, and the problem with that family was... The children went to school.

00:24:17: they've settled you know?

00:24:19: They found friends rented a house And the problem is that the main applicant was never sure if his permit will be renewed or not.

00:24:30: In case he isn't renewed.

00:24:32: That means he needs to have kids out of school quite uncomfortable if you're in business.

00:24:39: So what they did is, They came to us and I helped them get multi-citizenship.

00:24:45: It took them a year and half at that time And then they just registered here as multi citizens where there had free right of settlement In Switzerland As Europeans.

00:24:56: This was one the stories when this actually did help the quality of life, access to education.

00:25:03: Access to employment and at the same time they do create value for the host country because actually bring knowledge.

00:25:11: They bring money into the country The hire other people by property You know contribute.

00:25:18: So it's a yes exactly so this is one story.

00:25:22: another story was with Another family had very successful IT business in the country of origin.

00:25:33: But they felt, but with more than ten years ago that something... it's just a case not agreeing with the way countries go politically and having options.

00:25:47: so there were smart enough to realize maybe we should look for other options.

00:25:52: And I'm telling you twelve years ago when I started Not many people talked about this family looked into these into this problem and what they did is, they acquired EU citizenship for investment.

00:26:06: They are living globally but have started an amazing business in the US.

00:26:13: It's promising to be very successful basically vending machines for hot food.

00:26:19: The ones that hospitals can have and they could have them at the train stations, same way you buy chocolates on water maybe when it's twelve at night And these ones will be serving fresh homemade food which is amazing.

00:26:32: I don't know why no one thought about but he used all his knowledge in doing the other business And it's gonna go global, I think.

00:26:44: So this is another story which was quite interesting.

00:26:48: He basically managed to sell the company save money that he actually earned through hard work and go elsewhere... ...and he didn't lose anything

00:27:00: because you had a chance to go

00:27:02: Which unfortunately not true for many others.

00:27:05: They don't think about it.

00:27:07: Yeah That's true.

00:27:09: I mean, you mentioned this family that lived here in Switzerland before.

00:27:13: Is there any other input that you have for people in Switzerland?

00:27:19: Of course!

00:27:19: This is actually something else that i'm seeing locally right now.

00:27:23: it all started from again citizens of a couple of countries that are in conflict with each other.

00:27:29: the problem is when your country's in conflict and there is military subscription and you are living outside of the... You're living in Switzerland, your country is in conflict.

00:27:40: What a country can do to get you into the army?

00:27:45: And go and serve your country?

00:27:48: what they could do is ask them come and renew their international passport locally.

00:27:54: They basically tell us that we aren't allowed to do it through embassies anymore which creates risks if you're male or female elsewhere so as not coming back.

00:28:06: Oh, exactly.

00:28:09: And you registered here on your primary city passport?

00:28:14: The best thing to do is just acquire another one when you're in Switzerland and come register with Swiss authorities or other passports because they are not planning to go back to a country renewed while the conflict still lasts.

00:28:29: This is something that one of the trends that they're not just here in Switzerland.

00:28:34: Another thing is if you are coming from outside of Europe and employed here, it's the same as saying kids aren't school.

00:28:43: your life has here

00:29:55: having peace-of-mind.

00:29:57: From what I feel for me this is one of those emotions linked to my job Peace Of Mind.

00:30:03: What people actually look at five different passports You collected and you hang it on the wall, but... Oh

00:30:15: no!

00:30:16: It's not a bad idea

00:30:18: depending upon your passport.

00:30:19: But what you acquire through this passport is peace of mind.

00:30:25: Exactly.

00:30:26: Peace of Mind for you in

00:30:29: your family.

00:30:30: You know, you're taking care of your family.

00:30:31: You are taken care about the future generations.

00:30:34: I mean think of people that went through genocide or holocaust Or it's in their blood if they live in countries where there never had conflict or didn't have it for like Switzerland Why would we just think about this?

00:30:47: But I think Covid and the un-suing conflicts close to Europe made them think about it.

00:30:53: And what i want to mention here This is a process plan well at once.

00:31:01: This is not buying a pair of shoes, you know?

00:31:04: So this is something that we need to think about beforehand!

00:31:08: Yes.

00:31:09: Liana thank you so much.

00:31:12: it's fascinating field.

00:31:14: your working in It kind the intersection of identity and strategies.

00:31:19: where do I belong?

00:31:20: Where do i feel secure?

00:31:22: What my children grow up?

00:31:24: It's all emotional questions and they deserve thoughtful planning.

00:31:29: If you're listening, considering move a second residence or simply curious how global mobility actually works take your time ask bigger question.

00:31:39: please remember big international decisions really

00:31:42: rarely

00:31:43: exist in isolation.

00:31:44: You find details about Liana

00:31:47: and her work

00:31:48: In the show notes of course also what we do with

00:31:51: tax

00:31:53: links below.

00:31:55: Living internationally is bold, and understanding the layers behind it is even bolder And when a picture finally comes together The noise tends to disappear.

00:32:06: So yeah It's just like that.

00:32:08: You've been listening to Craigslist City.

00:32:11: Thank you so much Liana for

00:32:13: the pleasure of being here.

00:32:14: Thank-you That was

00:32:15: so interesting To listen to this.

00:32:18: I'm sure there are lots people out there thought about it and are quite aware of the possibility to even do that.

00:32:28: Thank you so much!