3 - From Corporate to Portfolio - One Woman's Reinvention with Xenia Tao

Julia Tatje: So, hi Xenia. Hey. you so much for being in my podcast, in the Text in the City podcast today. It would be great if you could introduce yourself quickly. You know, hey Julie, it's really great to be here. And I was just thinking, you know, she's probably going to ask me, you know, to introduce myself and who am I? Until I thought, okay, the first thing to say is I'm a mother. I see myself as a critical thinker. And newly, I'm now also a runner. So I thought, well, then that means I'm a mother thinking runner. And I thought, well, hang on. Maybe that's not what I want to say. ⁓ Someone could get it wrong. Yes. So no, I mean, in all seriousness, you know that I've served for more than a decade in banking now, leading global transformations and global teams. I continue to be. curious and engaged as ever in doing and delivering meaningful work for banks. I just do it now with a broader lens. Today, I continue to work with major banks around the world. And I also collaborate with WealthTech, particularly to reimagine client investment journeys, particularly with a focus now in the age of AI. Okay. Yeah. And then, you know, as if that's not enough. I also run a very small brand creative on the side, something a little bit different, but I feel it's a complimentary outlet. Yeah. That's always good to have something like that. For how long have you been in Switzerland? Because you are not as, as maybe we can tell you are not Swiss originally. Yes. No, I've been in Switzerland now for 18 years. So it's been a while. My daughter was born here. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, I think it's the longest place I've spent. ⁓ it's, apparently like it. Well, you just got, you stuck, I think I like it. I really like it. You know, I, I think it's, it's, it's, takes a lot of the boxes that I'm looking for. It was, you know, it has been, it continues to be a very exciting place. I'm also happy to, to, to now boast that Zurich now is also very exciting from the culinary perspective. Lots of new places to eat and you know, I love that now we're coming into autumn. There's so many colors and it's so beautiful outside. That's not what you get. I'm originally from Hong Kong, so that's, we don't have four seasons. So I feel very blessed. That's great. That's great. So you did have a corporate job and you had one job as I know, and now your life is. very different. maybe you can tell us something about that. Yeah, well, you know, you and I, we go back a little bit. And back in your previous company, I mean, way back when, you know, as you said, I was, my world was much smaller. I was with one employer, I own my universe was isolated to that one company, everything was quite simple, you know, I, at the end of the year, I got one document with my taxes, benefits, you know, pension contributions all in one, one document. And then it was easy. You know, it was quite easy. Things changed for me. And, ⁓ and that's why it was so great to discover that you'd launched your boutique firm. ⁓ Because for me was very serendipitous. was like, yes, ⁓ I hadn't realized how much I've missed you. And I know that it's odd to say that you've missed your tax advisor. I really did. I really did. Actually, thank you again. It was the sweetest thing a client ever said to me potentially. Yes. And I'm going to keep that email for dark days and dig it out. Yeah, because I think, you know, I think I say that it was serendipitous that you started your own, your own boutique firm and that you came back into my life. it was, you know, around about that time as I was exploring sort of new avenues and new opportunities that I had a lot of things pulling me in different directions. So I had opportunities to advise banks, to collaborate with fintech companies. to do a little bit of teaching, coaching, of lots of different things. And she even went to university, didn't she? Yes, that's right. That's right. And that was part of my exploration and my whole world expanded. I wasn't in this little capsule universe. I discovered there's an entire world outside of a bank. ⁓ And I really needed, it was great timing because I also needed know, bit of structure, a bit of structure around what was, what do I want to do? How am I going to do it so that I can continue to grow within that structure? That's when you came along. That's when you came back into my life. And they happily ever after. No, it doesn't end there. I didn't just like open a taxum, but we started working together again. And as you said, your tax situation went from standard to quite individual because like you did not have one employer any longer that handled all the stuff for you, but you had part-time employments and then things you did as a freelancer. Something maybe was just a one-shot project. And the big question was, how can we structure all this to be compliant in terms of taxes? social security, and then also set it up in a way that suits your life. Because there's different ways how you could get around organizing something as kind of like a portfolio career. this is very modern word for that. Congrats, you now do have a portfolio career. yes, and it's, it is different. So how does it feel to... to have all these different, ⁓ I think it's different energies potentially as well, right? Because it's not just one team and one boss, one company. Do you feel that doing things when you do them as a freelancer, does that feel different to the things that you do when someone hires you part-time? Yeah, mean, ⁓ definitely, you know, my days are definitely much more fluid now. and you know, I don't have a, any particular routine, any given day or any given week, yet at the same time, I have to say I am much, much more grounded. I choose to work on projects, on commitments that I believe in. And I choose and work with people who are equally disciplined in delivering excellence. So my energies and my efforts. are completely aligned with the people that I work with nowadays. And that's, mean, and I am able to do that. I'm able to devote that kind of focused energy to the projects that I work on, the initiatives with banks and wealth tech companies, mainly because, I mean, you helped me a lot to sort of structure. you know, to take off or reduce that cognitive load. I always have in the back of my mind, you know, how is this going to end? If I take this on, how is this going to change my tax situation? If I do this and do it that way, what does that mean for ⁓ my pension situation, my pension contributions? What are the one or the two things I need to really set straight? Yes. And because I have that foundation, you you and I, sat together I think a few times for you, I'm so sorry. mean, like, I mean, you were incredibly patient. This is what I'm here for. You were incredibly patient. And I that's what you need. I think that was also something ⁓ I'm lucky enough and old enough to realize you have to be clear about what you want out of your life, what you want to build. And then you need to not be shy to ask for help from experts. I'm a very big believer. in looking for the right experts who are reliable, obviously competent, reliable, and trustworthy. So I like working with people like that. And, you know, I found that with you, definitely with you and the rest of your team, so that I don't have to think about those nitty gritty little tiny administrative details. And you and I sat together more than a few times where, know, in the beginning it was sort of exploratory. You know, I mapped out what I was doing. we, you know, we looked at options and then, you know, we kept iterating mainly because I couldn't remember what, was there. don't feel it was like you couldn't remember because it is like, think what is typical for, for a setup like yours is that things are not 100 % fixed in the beginning. And it's going to be those three projects. and it's going to be like this and this and this, but things are evolving. Then someone maybe says, listen, we prefer hiring you. And the next one says, I checked, I can't put you on our payroll. Can you please do it as a freelancer? Then something pops up and it's just like, next week there will be this project. So how to react to this? So I think especially in situations that are subject to so much change like yours, it is important to be in touch. And it doesn't require sitting together for three hours and discussing the entire thing over and over again. It was just, I think we always just discussed the Delta. So it was like, okay, we ended there last time. Now there's this and this that added on top or one thing didn't develop it. as imagined. how will we adapt to that? this is like, from my perspective, it wasn't because you didn't remember. Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, that's very gracious. You know, I think, you know, I just believe that, you know, I was moving from a simple situation where there was not a whole lot to manage. And now I am managing, I have decided to manage my own professional life. And when you do that, you want to be, because it's new territory, I really wanted to be, that's the kind of person that I am. I just, need to really understand, you know, what do I need to do? What are my options? And that's where that patience, you your approach was. Exactly the one that I needed that I still need where you sit me down and say, look, this is what we discussed last time. This is now what's happened. is how we could, you know, these are your options and then we keep going. So I always felt I had a structure, a framework from which to move and build and then, and do my own thing. Right. So I always had that peace of mind, I guess. And I never. really, I mean, you just took that worry off my back. Right. So I didn't have to worry that, you know, I always came away from our conversations like, right, okay. I have a direction. know where I'm going. that's good. So then this is where I must say, yeah, job done. Very good. Because what also is special, I mean, there are questions in my professional life and when clients are asking me things where I can give a clear yes or no answer. Or where I can clearly say we have to do X and Y, but especially in such a fluid, let's call it a fluid situation like yours. There is no black and white answer and there's no listen, we need to do this clear was we have to do something, but still in the end, like what I tried to do is put you in the position to decide between two good options and to find a way. that is in line with ⁓ what you want, who you are, what you're planning to do, trying to keep things as simple as possible for you. Because I think this is very important because there's always like the maximum version. So we could set up an Aktiengesellschaft, a limited company and have like, you could rent an office and have like really the max version. Or we can keep it simple and just start small and then build things from there and decide along the way if we want to add something or leave something out. And I think this is what we did together. Yes. And I would also add, you know, I think leaving a big corporate, you know, is scary. One could say, you know, it's a, it's a common, ⁓ I think. emotion that one has is that you're scared, right? You're scared and you feel like, you know, I'm going to, you know, I'm going into the unknown. I used to get everything handled by the employer. And that was really something that I, I mean, also through the conversations that you and I have had, right? That I just learned to let go of that idea that the security, that security can only come from one employer, that there's incredible stability as well from, you know, several multiple income streams. And it just, you know, and there are options out there that aren't difficult. They aren't administratively onerous, you know, it's not like there's even more paperwork. ⁓ And, you know, that was not something that I was aware of. ⁓ That was something that I thought, ⁓ If you're self-employed, that equals tons of paperwork. It doesn't. It doesn't mean that at all. Yes. So this is maybe a very Swiss special thing because I have clients from all over the world and they, like you, they call me and they say, listen, I'm thinking about like becoming self-employed, going solo. Like, what do I have to do? And I usually answer is like, you have to decide that you want to do it and then you just do it because yes, welcome, then you're self-employed. There is no registration that you need. There's no permission. You don't get a number or anything else. Anyone can become self-employed and just by saying, I'm becoming self-employed now. And then yes, of course there's things to take care of in terms of social security. in terms of paying taxes. It always depends on if you have a Swiss passport or a permit that is linked to withholding tax or that has been linked to withholding tax or if you have a C permit. So there might be differences in like the exact thing, how we're going to do it in terms of social security and stuff like that. But in general, it is quite a straightforward thing. The only thing that is may be different and more complicated towards other countries is, especially to the U S I know that there are freelancers that consider themselves as freelancers and that are called freelancers, but they only have one client. And this is something that in the Swiss system, consider this as it's, kind of a fake freelancer because this person actually is not independent from, from one employer. It's just an employer that is. not willing to pay the social security contributions of the employer. Or this is at least the way the social security department is looking at it. And they are actually trying to protect people from employers that are just saving on their contributions and keeping them from being in this trap of fake self-employment. So someone that has several different clients, this person is considered as a self-employed person. And there's very little paperwork to apply. along the way, the most important thing is keep the receipts because there's not going to be any deduction without the receipt. But this is something that is, I think, quite common and easy to understand. No receipt, no deduction. But this is in a normal tax declaration, this is the case as well. If we can't prove it, we can't claim it. Yeah. So do you consider the amount of admin paperwork that you have to do now? Is this something that keeps you from doing your actual work or is it something that is a surprisingly little amount of your time? mean, I mean, as you said, it's surprisingly little. I mean, surprising because that's not what I expected. So I thought, you know, I thought it would be, you know, first of all, there'll be tons of paperwork and you're going to make me fill out tons of forms and, you know, sign lots of things that I don't understand. And that it wasn't like that. It's not like that at all. And, and that's, know, you can say, oh, it's, you know, partially, you know, I didn't know the system well enough. And it was great that again, you were kind enough to sort of explain to me the system. This is how you go about it. If that's the kind of activities that I'm. planning to continue to do, for example, all the projects that I have ongoing, then this is your best option. If that's the option that you take, then these are the things that you need to, you know, be it receipts or, ⁓ you know, contracts, invoices, all these kinds of things. And that's not, I mean, I don't think that's, that's additional, lots of additional work. I mean, it's certainly nothing that I cannot. You know, already integrated, you know, I'm already doing this, you know, as a, as a mom, as a partner, there's, you know, I am managing the household. So it's not, it's not a significant, it's not a material addition to, to very doable, very doable. would you, would you encourage people that are in a similar situation as you were, let's say a year ago, would you encourage them to think about building up? kind of this portfolio career. Yes. Yes. I think more and more so. And I would say, I would say you really need to ask yourself and I hope that all women, particularly women who find themselves transitioning, let's say from one career setup, one professional setup to potentially another professional setup to really ask themselves. And to be clear about the kind of life that they want to build and live and not the kind of work they want to do. And to not a different approach, yeah. Yes. And to really ask for help from experts. I think we, as women, have a tendency to do it ourselves. And I think there's an incredible value that you get when you tap experts. I mean, the men do it all the time. know, men ask for help. from experts and for me that's, think that's a big learning for me as well. And I, I am totally signed in on that. You need to get help from experts to not guide you per se, but to show you concretely, very tangibly. Look, I understand what you're going, what you want to do with your life. These are your activities. Here are your options. And at the end of the day, I make the decision what I want to do, what option I want to take. what kind of company I want to build, whether I'm self-employed or continue to take fractional consulting projects. Yeah, but it's good to be able to reduce that mental load and to people who are specialists, who like you and your team, ⁓ you know, this is the world you live in, taxes, and you guys find it incredibly fun. And, and for me, it's sort of, okay, it's not, it's not where my passions lie. ⁓ but it's great that that's, that's where your passions are because that's where we're complimentary. You know, I can, can, I can send off all the administrative detail to you and then you help me. You just fought me along the way. Yes. So yeah, that's what we're doing. And I think what is important for me is that I put my clients. people like you in the position to take and to make informed decisions. Because I think decisions based on I have a feeling or there was another mother in kindergarten that told me or my neighbor just said, no offense to your neighbor, but unless he is specializing in things like this, he might not be in the position to actually give such advice. And I had clients being so badly advised by their fellow co-workers, not because they were ⁓ like, intentionally doing harm to them, because they wanted to actually help them and they told them, yeah, I'm convinced it is like this. And it was not like that at all, like not at all. And yeah, so I think it is quite worth taking the advice of an expert before. You make a mistake that is expensive or that puts you in a bad position or like whatever could happen. It doesn't allow you to grow long-term, right? It doesn't allow you to grow and become who you want to be. And I think that's main takeaway ⁓ for me is that the reason why you go to experts, is because they know what they're doing, they're dedicated ⁓ and they're disciplined in that particular ⁓ domain. I find it incredibly helpful. And I think that that's the only, for me, that's the only sane approach. Okay. So I feel honored being part of your sane approach team and to help you with everything related to this whole world of taxes, social security, self-employment, setting up a company or not setting it up, but like on purpose, not setting it up and not just because. And I'm, I feel honored that I may do that for you. And I want to thank you for sharing your story and your experiences with us today. Thank you so much. I'm sure there's especially a lot of Ex bankers out there that can probably relate so that are also coming from this very corporate world that have tons of suits in their closets, but no idea of how to build up a new life. Now that their job may be no longer exists in this very form. And I hope that it. that a story like yours maybe encourages people to think differently. And yeah, as you said, to not think how do I want to work, but how do I want to live and build your work around this and how this can also be a chance. Although it might be intimidating and challenging in the beginning, but yeah, so if there is topics that or that we can help with to make this easier and easier to achieve, more approachable and less fearful. We are here. I encourage everyone that is in a similar situation to just give us a call or book an intro call with us and then we can discuss your situation as well. And thanks again Xenia and all the best for your future. And whenever you call, I'm like, my God, what is it this time? And I really wonder. what your next call will be about because it's very exciting. exciting though. all the best. Thanks. Bye bye. Bye.